19 hours ago, pinkman_90 said:

So those are your requirements for a great player?  3+ nba titles, multiple first teams, and multiple defensive teams?  

What does the word great mean? If you throw out terms like "great player" and "generational leader," then high criteria must be met. Three all NBA first teams and a couple of any level all defensive teams aren't exactly rarified air. I mean, there are scores of players who have done that in NBA history.

3 hours ago, harveycmd said:

What does the word great mean? If you throw out terms like "great player" and "generational leader," then high criteria must be met. Three all NBA first teams and a couple of any level all defensive teams aren't exactly rarified air. I mean, there are scores of players who have done that in NBA history.

Now add to that leading your team to 3+ nba titles?  What’s that list of players look like?

Also with your criteria guess we have to leave off KD, Steph, Nash, Barkley, Dirk, etc. from the “great” players list.  

Edited June 16Jun 16 by pinkman_90

The list is limited, but great is by definition exclusive:

Bill Russell

Kareem

Jordan

Magic

Kobe

Shaq

Pippen

Duncan

LeBron

Havlicek

Edited June 16Jun 16 by harveycmd

There's a difference between great and all-time great. Nash, Nowitzki aren't either one. Without the 2001 rule changes, Steph isn't either. I'm indifferent on Barkley.

1 hour ago, harveycmd said:

There's a difference between great and all-time great. Nash, Nowitzki aren't either one. Without the 2001 rule changes, Steph isn't either. I'm indifferent on Barkley.

Great and generational gets thrown out far too much. Caitlin Clark was termed great and generational before she ever touched a WNBA floor and the more she plays the more we see the holes in her game. She doesn't have a left hand, a dribble package, can't get downhill without a screen... But she's polarizing and popular, however sports is about hardware and she has nothing. Give me Chelsea Gray and Olivia Miles as top point guards in the league. 

2 minutes ago, Dread-headed Texan said:

Great and generational gets thrown out far too much. Caitlin Clark was termed great and generational before she ever touched a WNBA floor and the more she plays the more we see the holes in her game. She doesn't have a left hand, a dribble package, can't get downhill without a screen... But she's polarizing and popular, however sports is about hardware and she has nothing. Give me Chelsea Gray and Olivia Miles as top point guards in the league. 

That's exactly the problem; it's media driven more often than not these days. First Knicks title in 53 years and New York media goes nuts, to say nothing of their fans. Brunson is a good player and a good leader, but that doesn't make him great in either category.

I've never understood the Clark the stuff. I know I can't stand seeing her on every other commercial that pops up.

 

I've posted this before, but it's worth posting again for those that don't really know much about basketball history.

Most combined all NBA First Team and all NBA Defense First team combined.

Player            All NBA First team        All NBA First Team Defense         Total

Kobe               11                                  9                                                   20

Jordan            10                                  9                                                    19

LeBron            13                                 5                                                    18

Duncan           10                                 8                                                    18

Kareem           10                                 5                                                    15

Jerry West       10                                4                                                     14

Garnett              4                               9                                                     13

Malone            11                               1                                                     12

Pippen              3                                8                                                     11

Payton              2                                9                                                     11

Shaq                 8                                3                                                     11

Edited June 16Jun 16 by harveycmd

42 on Jordan in the first half 28 March 2003. 

 

Modern analytics sucks. AI says 2001 pre-prime Kobe at 22 would beat 2017 28 year old Curry by double digits in a 1v1 game to 21. Curry couldn't score on Kobe. Curry couldn't stop Kobe from scoring. 

 

I'll admit that I don't know what 1v1 to 21 means. When I played 1v1 for money in South Oak Cliff in the 1990s, we always played make-it-take it to 11 by 1 gotta win by two. 

Does anybody really care about the NBA. It is not even close to the game of basketball that I grew up playing. By the way can you define what a foul is and how many steps it takes to be called traveling or walking? Sheesh!!!

Hook Em 

3 minutes ago, khardman said:

Does anybody really care about the NBA. It is not even close to the game of basketball that I grew up playing. By the way can you define what a foul is and how many steps it takes to be called traveling or walking? Sheesh!!!

Hook Em 

They changed the rules to allow for the Euro Step. They changed the rules to make pansies happy. From 1980-2010 the best athletes in the world played in the NBA. Now pencil dicks rule basketball. 

Now we got fat white boys like Luka, slow goobers like Jokic, and unathletic chumps like Curry hyped as the "best" players. That's why nobody cares what happens now. They need to go back to the pre-2001 rules and run a real man's league.

AI says 2001 22 year old Kobe would kill any year Luka 1v1.

1 hour ago, harveycmd said:

I'll admit that I don't know what 1v1 to 21 means. When I played 1v1 for money in South Oak Cliff in the 1990s, we always played make-it-take it to 11 by 1 gotta win by two. 

Someone asked me what that means. It means 1 point for each score regardless where you shoot from on the court. If you scored, you got the the ball back. You had the check the ball with the defender at the top of the key after scoring. There weren't no foul call BS. You could try to call one, but the guys watching wouldn't back you up if you didn't really get fouled. That said, I never ran into a guy that wouldn't admit he fouled you if you called it. You didn't call it unless it was on the shot. 

@Gerry Hamilton Phil Jackson explicitly stated that he gave Kobe Bryant more responsibility in managing the court game than he ever gave Michael Jordan.

The 2001 Playoff Comments

During the 2001 NBA playoffs, Jackson praised Bryant's evolution into a complete floor leader. He contrasted their specific roles by highlighting that Jordan was primarily tasked with making plays out of double or triple teams, whereas Bryant was burdened with orchestrating the entire offensive and defensive system. Pippen did that for the Bulls.

Like Jordan, Kobe had to close games for the Lakers while calling offense and defense. Phil said he couldn't put the ball in Shaq's hands at the end of games because he was poor free throw shooter.

So much for Shaq being the best player for the Lakers in  2000-2004.

Damn heat index is 115.3 now. 

On 6/7/2026 at 3:59 AM, Gerry Hamilton said:

 

The greatest hypothetical 1v1 matchup in basketball history is Michael Jordan vs. Kobe Bryant. Kobe dominated Jordan when they played. But Kobe was much younger. Kobe was born in 1978.

 

 

Kobe performed the greatest draft workout in the history of world sports at the Inglewood YMCA on 9 June 1996.

Kobe said he never lost a 1v1 game. No one ever disputed him. Kobe Bryant famously stated that he never lost a game of one-on-one, once declaring, "If there's gonna be a player to beat me, he retired on that last shot in Utah in '98". He boldly claimed he would beat legends like LeBron James in his sleep and frequently bragged about dominating other stars, such as Tracy McGrady. 

 

On 6/7/2026 at 9:06 AM, Gerry Hamilton said:

Shaq was the best player on the Lakers. 

He was the most dominant player in the NBA. 

The NBA changed the rules of defense because of Shaq. 

Can't resist, Gerry. AI says the two US military figures most like Kobe are George Patton and Paul Howe. Patton is the greatest combat general in US history and Paul Howe is the greatest individual warrior in Delta Force history, credited with killing more combatants ever in single battle during the Battle of Mogadishu during 3-4 October 1993

Whether Paul Howe is the "greatest" Delta Force combat leader is a matter of opinion, as the U.S. military does not officially rank its special operations leaders. However, he is widely regarded as the most respected, influential, and legendary combat leader in the history of 1st SFOD-Delta

@Gerry Hamilton Here's another one for your Shaq stuff Gerry. 

Kobe Bryant led the Lakers to an 89-84 victory in Game 7 of the 2000 Western Conference Finals against the Portland Trail Blazers.

Trailing by 15 points in the fourth quarter, Bryant paced the Lakers and stuffed the stat sheet, finishing the game as the team leader in points, rebounds, and assists. Kobe became the best player in the world that day.

This is why the Lakers shouldn't build around loser Luka. Making the Finals is the standard, not something you celebrate.